Mary: I’m SO pleased to be talking about the follow-up to Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse. It’s been difficult waiting these past few years for Across the Spider-Verse because the first one was an absolute favorite of mine. I saw it in theaters 3 times, forcing different people to go with me each time.

If I’m being honest, Spider-Man is one of my favorite superheroes because he’s so funny and such a haphazard guy. He doesn’t really plan much, doesn’t really ever know what he’s getting into, but he’s still bright and funny the whole time. When Marvel and DC were really duking it out to be the most popular comic publisher back in the day, Marvel was known for having empathetic, more “human” characters, and Spider-Man is maybe the best example of that. Sure, he’s a hero, but he’s also just a little guy with normal problems – like, will his crush look at him??

How’d y’all like the first film and how’d you feel going into the follow-up?

Emily: I loved the first film! I know you’re talking about all iterations of Spider-Man, but I feel like Miles Morales specifically is such a likable character. He’s funny. He’s smart. He’s flawed. He’s got interesting family dynamics and fun side characters. I’m not a huge fan of superhero comic books, so I find out about these characters from the movies (sorry everyone). So yeah, this was my intro to Miles Morales, and I loved him immediately. I was so excited to see him again.

Obviously, the animation is innovative, the story is interesting, and all of that. But the heart of the story is Miles, and this is what makes the movie really exciting.

Mary: Oh, absolutely! Miles is a great character on his own, but I think that he particularly shines in these movies. You’re right that he works because of both his personality and his family/friends – I LOVE the dynamic between his parents and I was happy to see they played even more of a role here.

Kelli: I’m just gonna echo what both of you already said: I loved the first movie, I love Spider-Man, I love Miles. I will add that like Emily, I’m not a superhero person, not just with comics but with movies in general. Historically I’m more of a Marvel person if I have to choose, but the MCU is exhausting and out of how many films now—like 30?—I’ve seen maybe eight? But as a kid, Spider-Man was IT for me. I loved those original Tobey Maguire movies and I loved that the story was set not in some weird amalgamation of American cities but in NYC specifically.

That specificity is furthered in the Spider-Verse movies, both with Miles as a character and with the setting. The New York of these movies is not the polished and mostly-white metropolis of those original Spider-Man movies—it’s the New York I know and live in, and it centers the communities of color who built this city. I genuinely think these movies are some of the most realistic depictions of New York that we have in film, and that’s just one of many, many things I love about them.

Mary: As a non-New Yorker I never even thought about how the city is depicted, but you’re absolutely right, Kelli. Miles himself is even part of two different cultures, and the dynamic between his parents feels just right. The movies feel like a celebration of all the different types of people who live in New York, for sure.

Let’s cut to the chase, though. Can we talk about how Donald Glover was there for a very important short scene?

Emily: No we can’t, because I can’t handle it.

Kelli: I thought of you, Emily.

Emily: No, but seriously, Donald Glover is (fun fact) a really important part of the Miles Morales story, so it was cool that he was in this movie. For those of you who aren’t up on your Donald Glover fandom, back in his Community days, there was a major fan campaign to cast Donald Glover as the next Spider-man (pre-Andrew Garfield). Community played fan service in the season 2 premiere and had a scene with Troy (Donald Glover) wearing Spider-Man pajamas. This short (but significant!) scene from Community was a major inspiration for the Miles Morales character. In short, we (maybe) wouldn’t have Miles Morales if it weren’t for Donald Glover.

Mary: This is one of my fave pieces of comic book lore.

Emily: Donald Glover would later make a small (but significant!) appearance in Homecoming. His character has a short encounter with Tom Holland’s Spider-Man in which he mentions his nephew. The implication is that Glover’s character’s nephew is Miles Morales… which means Glover is playing Uncle Aaron… which means he’s the Prowler. This is confirmed by his cameo in this new Spider-Man movie. And yeah, Glover is in the movie. Not a cartoon. The actual actor. And it’s awesome.

I applauded in the theater. Everyone looked at me weird (maybe they didn’t but I felt like they did).

Mary: I felt so delighted to see that it was actually Glover and not just an animated version of him. The animation in this absolutely blew my mind in general. If the first Spider-Verse film did something new with animation, Across the Spider-Verse one-upped itself in almost every way. Spider-Punk alone is a huge achievement in animation, with his glitchy, zine-like style. Maybe most impressive, multiple characters could have varying artistic styles and animation styles and coexist in the same scene. It really hammered home that each universe is different but similar. You could still always recognize a character as a Spider-Man.

Emily: Spider-Punk was one of my favorite parts of the movie, not just because he is voiced by Daniel Kaluuya, but also because, as you said, the animation style was so innovative. I never would have thought to animate something like that, but he seriously looked like a DIY punk rock poster. I agree it was really cool seeing all the different animation styles altogether. This seems wild, but it’s also cool just to see the same studio do multiple animation styles, let alone in one movie. I mean think about studios like Disney. They have a very signature animation style, and every Disney movie looks like a Disney movie. That’s not to say Disney hasn’t done anything innovative or creative with animation. But pushing what animation looks like and how it can add to characterization and story? No one is doing that like these Spider-Man movies are.

Mary: Exactly–it’s impressive to see all the styles merge and keep their individuality and thematic purpose, all at the same time! I feel like I’d need to watch it 100 times to pick out all the different Spider-Men and their styles. If you’re learning about most of these comic characters from the movie, I’m somewhere in between. I knew Miles, but had no clue about actual, CANONICAL Spider-characters like Peter Parked-Car. After the movie, I spent a lot of time going down the rabbit hole of reading Wikipedia about some of the different variations of Spider-Man.

Kelli: I obviously agree that this movie is gorgeous. I didn’t know that other Spider-Men even existed until the first film came out, so learning about all of these other versions was a lot of fun. I loved Hobie too, and another new favorite is Pavitr Prabhakar (Indian Spider-Man, voiced by Karan Soni).

Mary: I hate to be that annoying fan, but I’m pretty sure Pavitr as a character predates Miles!

Kelli: Another thing that’s really cool that I didn’t know about until my girlfriend, Ang, told me after our screening, is that the LEGO Spider-Man scene? Animated by a 14-YEAR OLD BOY.

Mary: YES. I could not believe that.

Kelli: Apparently, Preston Mutanga, a teenager from Minnesota who is passionate about 3D animation, remade the entire trailer for the film with legos and posted it online. It quickly went viral and when directors Lord and Miller saw it, they said, ‘we should get in touch with that person and work with them.’ When they found out he was a teenager, that did not deter them, and they had him animate the sequence. This story is just so cute to me, and it really drives home the care and attention to detail that went into the visuals for this film.

Mary: What’s most surprising to me about the movie is that it didn’t wrap much of anything up. Someone in our theater audibly yelled when “To be continued…” flashed up on the screen. Thankfully, we don’t have to wait TOO long for the next installment (I think it might be coming out sometime next year), but that doesn’t get around the fact that we felt like we were nearing the end of something at the end of the movie. Emily, I remember you mentioned feeling frustrated that it left things hanging, want to talk about that?

Emily: I had no concept of time during that movie. Maybe because it was just that good. And I did not know that it was supposed to end on a cliffhanger. To me, watching the movie, it seemed like we were close to a conclusion. So yeah, it was disappointing to end on a cliffhanger. I’ve been trying to let other people know going in that it is going to be a cliffhanger, because if you know, I think you can mentally prepare and won’t feel so disappointed by it.

I do feel like maybe the movie could have ended a little earlier to make it feel more like a strong conclusion, but still with cliffhanger energy. Like maybe right when Miles realizes he’s not actually back in his own universe?

Mary: Right! That could’ve been a good place to stop. I get the feelings of disappointment for people who didn’t know it was a trilogy, and I think it’s 100% good to know that going in. That said, I’m hoping that this means that the third movie is going to pack even more awesomeness in. Maybe they had to get through a little more story to have time to do whatever they’re doing in the third one. The good news is that we won’t have to wait too long for the next installment.

Kelli: Yeah, I was lucky enough going in that somewhere (either on Twitter or a podcast) I’d heard that this was a part one, so I knew things weren’t going to come to a neat conclusion. As the movie came to an end I could sense that they were setting stuff up for part two, and I think knowing that it was going to be a cliffhanger helped me feel more excited and less disappointed. I cannot say the same for Ang, my girlfriend, who asked loudly as soon as the credits appeared, “That’s the end of the movie???”

I feel like it’s actually maybe a good thing that they revealed Miles as the other-universe-Prowler at the end of the movie instead of stopping just when he realizes he’s in the wrong universe, because otherwise, in the interim between this movie and the next, people would probably have figured out where it was headed and the reveal would pack less of a punch when the final installment comes out. Obviously this isn’t the ideal way to engage with movies—worrying about who is going to figure out what and talk about it on the internet—but this is the world we live in.

Mary: I’ve been trying to sell everyone I know on Miles, and on the Spider-Verse movies in general. Not only is it the most fun multiverse story I’ve ever seen, but it’s showing how diverse takes on an old property can breathe new life into it and make it better. My dad is very staunchly set in the idea that we should still be following all the original heroes from the 30s or whatever, and he hates it when these characters are altered. For example, he insists that Riri Williams is just “not right” as a new version of Iron Man. However, we’ve been telling and retelling superhero stories for years! The Batman of the 1990s is not the same that readers knew in the 1940s. As the world changes (for the better in terms of inclusion and representation), comics change to fit what’s going on. Miles is part of that!

/Rant. This is just something I’m passionate about!

Emily: Yes, and I think a response to those criticisms is one of the core messages of this Spider-Man story. Miles Morales says again and again that anyone can be Spider-Man. He’s not unique or special—well, not unique or special for being Spider-Man. And that’s okay! There is space in this world (and other worlds) for everyone to be a hero.

Kelli: Speaking of who is or isn’t allowed to be a hero: one of the very few criticisms I’ve heard about the first Spiderverse movie is that it struggles a bit to center its female characters. Gwen wasn’t exactly relegated to a love interest, but that was definitely part of the way she was presented in the first film, a movie which is otherwise primarily interested in relationships between men—the mentor/mentee relationship between Miles and Peter, and the father/son relationship between Miles and his dad. It seems like that criticism was heard and considered for Across the Spiderverse, which delves much deeper into Gwen’s story and makes her something of a co-lead. How did y’all feel about Gwen’s storyline here?

Mary: I can understand the critique about Gwen in the first film, even though I don’t 100% agree with it. Sure, she was kind of a love interest, but that love was just a crush that never fully materialized to some extent – and now we get to explore that in the follow up. I’d argue that the second movie provides more nuance to Gwen’s character – especially in seeing her interact with her dad. I’ve seen some “discourse” about how Gwen’s struggle to “come out” as Spider-Woman is an analogy – or straight up confession – of being trans, especially because of the pink and blue background during the scene. While I’m not sure where I stand on that (I see the analogy, but I’m not sure what evidence there is that Gwen is trans??), it’s an interesting part of the conversation, too.

Emily: I think it’s less than Gwen is 100% a trans character but rather her story works as a trans allegory. And there seems to be a lot of nods in the second film to that. I think this Vox article does a better job of explaining it than I could. But basically, yes, there is definitely a blue and pink color story going on in Gwen’s world. But there’s also the specific way the conversation goes between Gwen and her father. It’s also the fact that Gwen has a “Protect Trans Kids” flag in Gwen’s room, and her dad has a trans flag on his uniform. Whether or not Gwen is literally trans or just a trans symbol, it seems clear that the movie is inviting that reading. At the very least the movie seems to say, yes, if you see yourself in this character, then this character is for you.

Kelli: Also her haircut. Trans.

But yeah, I agree that I think it’s great that the movie is actively inviting that reading, especially since there isn’t a ton of queer representation in the story otherwise. And I appreciate the amount of time and care Gwen’s story is given here. I think it would be really cool if they leaned in even harder for the next movie, but we’ll see what happens.

Mary: Yes, y’all more clearly articulated the reading I think it invites! It’s a message to trans kids that hey, the movie makers see you and recognize your struggle and here is a character who is experiencing something analogous and similarly scary.

And, even though they never say it, I think Hobie has some bi-guy energy. Dismantle the system of gender and all that!

I think the second movie does well adding more context for Gwen, but it also introduces Jessica Drew, a totally badass Spider-Woman who does major heroic acts all while heavily pregnant. Do I wish there were more women Spider-people featured? Yes, but also I accept that this is Miles’ story ultimately. I do think that Miles is very non-toxic in his masculinity, which is always great to see! Also, major props for the diversity. An Indian Spider-Man? Get out of here! So good.

Kelli: Before we wrap up, I just have to give a shout out to my husband, Oscar Isaac, who voices Miguel O’Hara. I’m so proud of him. And in all seriousness, I’m very interested to see where they go with his narrative. Obviously it’s bad guy vibes, but I could also see him having a redemption arc.

Mary: I’m curious, too! I think that Miguel will get a redemption arc, too. He’s definitely bad, but seems to have good intentions and be acting out of a place of deep hurt.

My prediction is that Miguel will realize that being Spider-Man is more of a mentality than a straight up “canon event” and that Miles is a hero in every sense of the word. They’ll maybe even have to team up to fight The Spot! Side note, I LOVED The Spot’s transformation from low-rate bad guy to massive supervillain. Genuinely frightening.

Kelli: Me too! And another shout out to another one of my husbands (I have a lot of them), Jason Schwartzman. Great vocal performance.

Mary: I loved this movie so much, and I can’t wait for the next one – and whatever the animation team decides to do after that. Thank y’all for talking about it with me!