Happy Mother’s Day, everyone! Since motherhood and what it means to be a mother are central themes in the miniseries Little Fires Everywhere, today seemed like a good day to bring this conversation to you. In the first part of Janet and Emily’s conversation, they focus on two of the mothers (Mia and Elena), their families, and some of the differences between the book and the miniseries.

Spoilers for the book and the show to follow.

Janet: Let’s just get into it. What did you think about the series [and or the book] Little Fires Everywhere?

Emily: I really liked it. I'm just going to put my cards on the table.

I was ehhh about the book, but part of that is I just really liked Everything I Never Told You so much and I had read that first. Then I interviewed Celeste Ng before I read Little Fires Everywhere, and it was hyped up a lot, so I think it was built up in my head before I read it. And obviously on the podcast Kelli hated this book. When you talk to somebody about a book and they hate it, that definitely affects your opinion of it. And I see and understand her criticism, if you want to hear more about it you can listen to the podcast.

Janet: Yes, here is a link for everybody to that episode, and we’ll talk about the interview with Celeste Ng you did for Book Riot a little later, too.

Emily: I still was very interested in seeing the show because there wasn't anything about the book that made me think, I hate this story. and I'm always very curious even when I read something (even if I'm just iffy about it) if there is a movie or a show.

Janet: Same. Some readers don’t like to see books brought to life and others are okay with it. I am okay with it. I like seeing someone else’s interpretation of a book even if it’s different from my own.

Emily: So, one of the things that was very jarring to me about the show was how Kerry Washington played Mia. It just wasn't how I read her. And I hate saying this about a woman, it’s something you have to be careful about, especially when it comes to talking about women, especially women of color, but she seems very abrasive and angry.

Janet: Yes, in the book Mia comes across as more passive to me. She just seems to BE in the situation, obviously, she’s making things happen because she is very important to the story. But I agree, she even feels asexual in the book to me sometimes.

Emily: You said Kerry talked a little bit about her portrayal of Mia in an interview so maybe you can speak to that a little more and what Kerry said.

Janet: Right. So, in an interview for NPR with Terry Gross, Kerry Washington explained how she realized her portrayal of Mia was very similar to that of her own mother. She said that her own mother, who was a black woman AND a daughter of immigrants AND an academic, would play on the assumptions that people had of her.

And I believe she also said that Reese Witherspoon realized she was also playing Elena in a similar way to her own mother. I could be thinking of a different interview though. But I can see how Mia in the show does play on the assumptions of others, especially Elena.

Emily: When you say that Mia came across as passive in the book, do you think it could be that her character was underwritten in the book?

Janet: That’s a good question. Maybe. Because who did you think was the protagonist when you read the book? And I know it’s been a while since you read it too, because for me it really wasn’t Mia or Pearl, which is how it seems in the show. I felt like maybe I knew more about Elena in the book.

Emily: See. One of the things that I really liked about the story and I think that really makes it work is neither Mia nor Elena are wrong and neither of them are right.

Janet: Exactly.

Emily: There are plenty of reasons that these two women don't like each other.

One of the main things is they are fighting about the custody case. And I can see the point of both of their opinions.

Mia is fighting for a woman who abandoned her baby in a moment of duress because she couldn't afford to keep her, and she didn't know what else to do. And now she's trying to get her child back. And I can see why she has the right to her child.

Janet: Yes.

Emily: However, I can also see how Elena wants to fight for her friend who has cared for this child, wants to adopt this child, and has welcomed this child into a warm and stable home. And how desperately this friend has wanted to have a child but couldn’t.

I really felt for both of them. It’s an emotional story. I was brought to tears on behalf of both sides several times.

Neither of these women are wrong. Now, in the way they go about dealing with this case and their own personal flaws (they have many) maybe they are not good people, necessarily. So that makes it really complicated. I see how the audience can side with either of these women, but I also don't like either of these women.

Janet: Really? I think I felt that way in the book [maybe not liking either woman] but watching the show it's different for me. How did you watch the show?

Emily: When I first started watching there were a few episodes already out, but then I went week to week.

Janet: Okay. So, we watched it basically the same way. And then I went ahead and binged it this week again to look for things I may have missed. The two times I’ve watched it, I have found myself on separate sides or rooting for separate sides—on purpose.

Emily: Okay.

Janet: Just like you said earlier, neither Mia nor Elena are wrong when it comes to the custody battle. I don't think they are trying to do bad things. For example, I don’t think Elena is racist, but she does live inside this bubble of White Feminism. She doesn't have ill intentions, necessarily, she is trying to do everything “right” but that is solely based on what her definition of what “right” is.

Both women have different opinions on the custody case, how they raise their children, and how they exist in the world. They both have different circumstances and have had different upbringings. All of it adds to the tension between the two, but I don't think either of them are wrong are bad. They make mistakes and have flaws, but they are not horrible people.

The first time I watched it I was on the “Mia” side. Then the second time I watched it; I was focusing on understanding the “Elena” side.

Emily: Since we are talking right now about Elena, and because we talked about Kerry Washington's performance earlier, how did you feel about Reese Witherspoon? I just want to say that one of the critiques I heard about is that it's a lot like her character from Big Little Lies. How do you feel about that?

Janet: I can see that. I thought some of her "scream performance" in Little Fires was something I had never seen her do before. Like when she got really angry and told Izzy to just to put on the FUCKING KEDS! Or when she tells Lexie that Lexie IS PERFECT! But as far as the character is concerned, it is a very similar character compared to Big Little Lies.

Emily: Yeah.

Janet: But I think Reese plays that really well. She does a good job at her portrayal of the quote unquote perfect white mother who is a perfectionist, who is Type A…

Emily: The grown-up Elle Woods [from Legally Blonde].

Janet: Yeah, really!

Emily: I think it's really clear, and I'm not just saying this, but when I talked to Celeste Ng about this casting, she said that Reese Witherspoon was her ideal for this character in part because she watched her in Big Little Lies.

I'm not a Hollywood casting director or anything, but how this stuff works a lot of the time is casting directors see actors play certain roles and think they would be perfect for this other thing. I mean, what is Reese supposed to do? Totally reinvent this character to be somebody different just so she doesn't feel typecast?

You said this already, but just to agree with you--this character has a little more of an edginess to her--where it just seems like at any moment, she's just about to lose her shit and maybe burn a house down.

Janet: And what did you think about the kids?

Emily: They were all really great. Not just because they looked like mini Reese Witherspoons, all of them. They looked like a mixture between Reese Witherspoon and Joshua Jackson and they looked like they were all really related. How do you find four actors that actually look like they do and are all really good actors?

Emily: And Pearl. She’s really great and I kept looking at her and thinking she looks really familiar and I looked her up on IMDb and she hasn't been in a whole bunch of stuff, but she's got that look. She’s going to be famous.

Janet: Yes, she definitely will be. Agreed.

Emily: So, I think they were all good. It’s been a while since I read the book, but one of the things that really stuck out to me from the book is the relationship between Pearl and Lexie. And the fact that Pearl is giving and giving and giving and Lexie just takes.

Because we've all had those relationships where we can take a step back and realize we're doing all the giving and the other person is doing all the taking.

Janet: Exactly.

Emily: So, Janet agrees and thinks “yes, this is you, Emily.”

Fun fact… Emily and Janet have been friends since they were baby MFA students

Janet: NO! Not at all, I’m agreeing with you about how common these types of relationships really are, they are the worst.

Emily: So that really stuck with me and felt real, and also, it's so shitty. Lexie does so many shitty things to Pearl throughout the book. And whenever one of those things was about to come up in the show, I was watching with Ben, who hasn't read the book, and I would be like it’s about to happen…

Janet: Here’s the abortion scene, and Lexie is about to use Pearl’s name…

Emily: Look! the nurse is about to come out watch and see what's going to happen…so I guess what I'm trying to say is all of that played out really well and the drama worked really well in the show. And I felt for Pearl I really, really did.

Janet: And I really felt for Moody in the show, but I don't remember feeling that way reading the book. Maybe it felt like Trip and Pearl happened fast in the book, I don't know. I remember Moody having a crush, but I didn’t remember how long they were hanging out before Trip happened—it just felt fast.

Funny thing is, the show happens from August to December of 1997, and the book runs until almost summer.

Emily: I don’t think the timeline is a big factor between the book and show.

Janet: Okay. Thinking about mothering, what do you think about the other mother/daughter pairings between Elena with Pearl and Mia with Izzy? For example, did Elena want Pearl to be her daughter instead of, say Izzy? Or…

Emily: To me it seems more about their feeling that the other mother wasn't doing something correctly, so they were coming in to be a good mother. And they critique each other about it…so I think a lot of it was they felt like the other mother was not doing something.

Janet: Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Emily: Also, teenage girls, this is my experience anyway, you kind of think your mom is the worst. So, you look for another adult woman to look up to, because you definitely don’t want to be like your own mom.

Janet: Right, right.

Emily: I think it’s just a natural process of being a teenage girl becoming an adult and part of that is pushing back and looking for other women. So, I think there's a little bit of that from the children's perspective.

Janet: I think you're right. I think that we, as women who were once teenage girls know, we think our mothers are not cool and maybe we don’t like them, even though they may be amazing. We try to find somebody else. And that's definitely what the girls are doing here.

I also think that Izzy and Mia have like a spiritual kinship/artistic connection between them too. But I don't think Pearl is like Elena in any way.

Emily: I don't remember if this is in the book, but in the show, it seems like initially Pearl wants to be a writer and Elena is a writer.

Janet: YES! There is that car scene early in the series between them. Elena is excited that Pearl thinks what she does is exciting maybe because her children don't think so and her husband doesn't think so, and her mother didn't think so. You're right, I forgot about that.

We have Pearl the writer with Elena and Izzy the artist with Mia, that makes sense.

Let’s try to wrap this part up and talk about the ending some.

Emily: In the show, Elena takes the blame for the fire, like I get what it means symbolically, but the practical side of me is just, well that doesn't make sense. It's going to be worse for her to confess than if it was the kids, they would be in less trouble than what she's going to be in.

Janet: Would they be? I guess since they're underage and for insurance purposes?

Emily: Right, for insurance purposes, I feel like it would make a difference if your kids set a fire versus being an adult with a fully developed brain…And I realize symbolically she was trying to absolve herself, but my practical side was like why would you say that.

Janet: Maybe in that moment…she had an epiphany like, she realized this is all my fault, the way I’ve mothered my children, all I've done. She felt bad about what she said to Izzy—about not wanting her when she found out she was pregnant.

Elena has caused all of this and has burned down her life.

Emily: I guess if you're rich you can just afford to burn your house down.

Janet: And be perfectly fine with it.

Emily: Even if this is their way of moving on and trying to be better people, they do it in a very White Privileged way. Because only rich white people could burn down their house and be fine afterwards.

Janet: Well, they do have the rental house to move into now.