Kelli: It is September, and time for our second ever Queer Book Club meeting!
Emily: How fun. It's officially a thing now because we've done it two times.
Kelli: Yay us!
Kelli: So, the point of doing this club is to expose ourselves to more queer lit. I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do in terms of queer literature, and while I am obviously into reading more recent stuff (like we did for our last post), I also wanted to take this opportunity to fill in a very important blind spot for myself: The Color Purple by Alice Walker.
Not only had I never read The Color Purple, but I also had no idea that it was even queer. I knew it was a huge touchstone of Black literature as well as southern literature, but that was the extent of my knowledge of the book. Then Emily told me I should read it, with the caveat that it is epistolary, a word I just had to look up how to spell.
Emily: Haha. Yes, Kelli famously hates epistolary novels.
(Spoilers to follow for this book from 1982.)
Kelli: Famously. Anyway, that was my background going into this. Emily, what's your experience with this novel? When did you first read it?
Emily: So okay. The first time I read this book was for an African American Literature by Women class that I took in undergrad. And this is what I love about being an English major. You get to take classes like African American literature by women. BUT ANYWAY.
Kelli: Yeah that sounds like a great class.
Emily: I had seen the movie many times, but I think as much as people love the movie, it misses out on some of the deeper messages that make this book so stunningly beautiful and poignant. Or rather, those messages are there, but I at least didn't feel like I really GOT it until I read the book. But then I read the book and it immediately shot up to being one of my favorite books of all time. I'm sure we'll get into it more. But what I love about this book is how it looks at the world from a Black feminist lens. Specifically, what the book seems to say about religion and female sexuality really struck a chord with me. But what did you think of it? I'm dying to know, because obviously we all know I love it.
Kelli: I loved it! Five stars!!!!
Emily: YAY
Emily: Good meeting.
Kelli: This has been Queer Girl Book Club.
Emily: One question I want to ask to start out, since this is a queer book club: You said you didn't think of this as a queer book (or you didn't know it was) and a lot of people you talked to about it didn't really know it was (or remember it was) either. Why do you think that is?
Kelli: I was going to bring this up! So, when I was visiting my mom recently, she and the people we were staying with (who are all in their 60s/70s, just for context) asked me why I was reading it now, and I explained the premise of our club. All three of these people responded "Oh! There are lesbians in that?"
Emily: Hahahah
Kelli: I think my mom has only seen the movie, but pretty sure her two friends had read the book at some point.
Emily: But like... on a scale of 1-10, how lesbian is this book?
Kelli: Well, our narrator is like... the most lesbian lesbian.
Emily: Right I feel like this is a 10.
Kelli: She says that when she sees a man all she can think about is a frog.
Emily: Also she starts a pants-making business. Which seems like code for "I am really gay," for some reason.
Kelli: But yeah, that's a good question: why did I not know this book was gay, and why do people not remember it's gay?
I guess my first answer is maybe because the book isn't strictly a romance. It has a lot of other stuff going on. I think people like to slot books into categories, and this book seems to be one that is first and foremost part of the canon of Black literature. That's what I always knew about it.
So like, a book that is Black AND feminist AND queer?? Is that even allowed?
they’re probably just friends
Emily: I think you're right. I think this book is seen as "Black literature," and therefore people think it's mostly concerned with issues that concern Black Americans. But really I feel like race is maybe secondary to the exploration of issues facing women. BUT... I say this with the disclaimer that you CAN'T truly separate parts of people's identity. You can't explore Celie's story without recognizing her as Black and a woman and queer.
Kelli: Yes, for sure. And I think it's amazing that this book so thoroughly explores all of those facets of her identity, along with her spirituality.
Emily: I really, really loved the way this book looks at spirituality. And that's where the title comes from, a discussion about spirituality that Celie has with Shug, so I want to talk about that.
Kelli: YES. That is my favorite part of the book. I bookmarked it and read it aloud to my mom while we were in the car, lol.
Emily: Ugh it's SO GOOD. Do you want to attempt to explain it lol
Kelli: I'll try!
Emily: This is for a grade
Kelli: Oh god
Emily: LOL JK. I quit that racket.
Kelli: Basically, for the first half (or so) of the book, Celie is writing letters to God. Eventually, after enough shit goes down, she starts addressing the letters to her sister, Nettie, instead. Shug asks Celie about why she isn't writing to God anymore, and they get into a discussion about what God is and isn't.
They talk about the fact that the bible implies God is a white man, and Celie says it’s becoming harder and harder for her to pray to him when that's the form he takes.
Emily: Right.
Kelli: And Shug is basically like, it's not even just that God is supposedly a white man, but a man at all. She says that to her, God is an It. God is in nature, and inside of people, and in feelings, and in everything. God isn't a person.
And I love that so much, because that's how I always think about God, or spirituality. I've made it pretty clear on the blog and on the podcast that I'm not a religious person—I'm not even really a spiritual person—but if there is a God, or some force beyond our understanding, that's what it is. A force.
And Shug tells Celie that whenever she starts to think of a man, to focus instead on a tree, or a rock, or whatever other thing she might find God in instead.
Emily: It's just... a flawless moment in literature.
Kelli: It's so beautiful.
Kelli: Shug also tells Celie that she thinks God wants people to appreciate the things that make us feel good. Like sex.
Emily: YES.
Kelli: And Celie is like, *GASP* SHUG!!!! And Shug is like, WHAT. IT FEELS GOOD.
Kelli: And that's where the color purple comes into play too. Shug says God loves admiration, and Celie asks if God is vain.
"Naw, she say. Not vain, just wanting to share a good thing. I think it pisses God off if you walk by the color purple in a field somewhere and don't notice it."
Emily: Which I'm 100% on board with because purple is my favorite color
Kelli: YES.
Kelli: And then Celie asks what God does when it's pissed off, and Shug says something else really profound and beautiful: "Oh, it make something else. People think pleasing God is all God care about. But any fool living in the world can see it always trying to please us back."
Kelli: It was when I got to this chapter that I knew the book was getting five stars. Lol
Emily: Same, honestly. And when I think about why this book is so perfect, I think about this scene.
Emily: I want to go back to what Shug said about sex though. Because sex is such an IMPORTANT part of this book too. I feel like Celie's entire journey of empowerment comes from her sexual empowerment.
Kelli: Totally. And she starts from a place of being sexually abused, so it makes sense that conquering her negative feelings about sex is so much of her growth.
Emily: Yes. And the way she feels about sex changes too. When she marries Mr.___ and has to have sex with him, she basically says she just lies there and lets him do his business. She doesn't see sex as something that she's even meant to enjoy.
Kelli: Yes. And she doesn't see it as something she possibly COULD enjoy, not if it's with a man.
Emily: Celie's relationship with Shug is so interesting too because, as you said, it's not a romance. It's not as if these two ride off in the sunset together and live happily ever after.
Kelli: Right. But in a way, they kind of do?
Emily: But I guess just not in the conventional way.
Kelli: Yeah. I think this book is also exploring ideas of polyamory and is pretty ahead of its time in that sense. Throughout, Shug is in pretty serious relationships with men even while she's still in a relationship with Celie. I guess because with Shug, nothing is really defined. She breaks Celie's heart pretty badly when she runs off with a young dude, but she basically tells Celie, "I love you, but I want to be with him too, for now anyway." Shug is very capable of loving more than one person at a time. Celie, not so much.
Emily: Right. I like that although Shug is liberated and confident in ways Celie isn't (at least at the beginning of the novel), Shug isn't like... aspirational for Celie. She admires her, but there are many ways that they remain very different people, even as Celie evolves and starts to speak up for herself.
Kelli: For sure. There's not one right way to be a woman.
Emily: And there's not one right way to enjoy sex and relationships.
Kelli: This book has so many unique female characters, which I really appreciated. Not just Shug and Celie and Nettie, but also Sofia and Squeak.
Emily: Yess, I wanted to talk about Sofia and Harpo.
Kelli: Yes, I want to know your thoughts! Because their relationship is really complicated.
Emily: So I think this is another way Alice Walker is examining gender norms and relationships. I think we needed a Harpo in this book to balance out all the really shitty dudes.
Kelli: LOL
Emily: Harpo and Sofia show that relationships can be complicated in all sorts of ways, and not just because the dude is a shitty abusive rapist. Some dudes just want to cook.
Kelli: For sure. And Harpo is like... well, the other men around me are abusive rapists so I guess I should be doing that too? But it's not really in his nature.
Emily: Right, and how does that go when he tries?
Kelli: Sofia is like, bro I will beat you up if you try to beat me up.
Emily: LOLOLOLOL. Honestly every time I think of the movie The Color Purple, I think of Oprah Winfrey as Sofia going, "HARPO!"
Kelli: I really need to watch the movie now.
Emily: I will watch it with you. I'm due for a rewatch.
Kelli: Let's do it!
Emily: Book Club goes to the movies.
Kelli: We haven't even really talked about Nettie. I'm curious what you think about her sections.
Emily: Ok so Nettie. Sibling stuff always gets to me. I kind of think it's sad that Celie spent so much time trying to protect Nettie from the abuse Celie suffered. And Nettie kind of gets out on her own and gets to go to Africa and be with Celie's kids. And Celie misses so much of it.
Kelli: Yeah, it's so devastating that they're both writing to each other without being able to know if the other person is reading anything they're saying.
Emily: I know. So I guess the epistolary worked, because how else would you get that idea across?
Kelli: Yeah, definitely. I think this was a case where the epistolary actually added to the book, and it also didn't feel completely unrealistic to me in the way this form often does.
I find that in a lot of epistolary novels, a letter will start out sounding like a real letter, and then at a certain point it's like you're just reading a regular novel, and then it's like, LOVE, ME. And I'm like, nobody writes letters like that and I refuse to suspend my disbelief.
Emily: Lol. "Love, Me."
Kelli: Like, for real tho
Kelli: But I think Alice Walker does a fantastic job with the voice here, and the fact that Nettie and Celie have such different letter writing styles is proof that she really thought about this format and how best to utilize it.
Emily: Yeah like... I think Alice Walker might be a good writer. Hot take.
Kelli: Woah
Kelli: So, have you read her other work? I'm curious about it!
Emily: I haven't, to be honest. Which is weird because I love this book so much.
Kelli: Yeah, when I was looking at her other stuff none of it jumped out to me like "oh, I've heard of that before." But also, I didn't know this book had gay stuff, so.
Also, I was reading Alice Walker’s Wikipedia because whenever someone writes something queer I feel compelled to run to wiki and look at the 'personal life' section of their bio.
Emily: So is she gay?
Kelli: WELL
Kelli: She was married to a man for a long time, but also, in the mid 90s she was in a relationship with TRACY CHAPMAN. OF FAST CAR FAME.
Emily: This all makes sense. What a queen.
Kelli: I know. Here’s what she said about their relationship: "It was delicious and lovely and wonderful and I totally enjoyed it and I was completely in love with her but it was not anybody's business but ours."
Emily: That's right and here we are wanting to know. We'll write the fanfic.
Emily: I'm a terrible person.
Kelli: Yep. I just love to know this kind of stuff.
Emily: Same.
Emily: Well, I'm glad you loved this book so we can still be friends.
Kelli: I'm glad you told me to read it! It's always nice to read something that is considered a classic and actually have strong feelings about it.
Emily: Yeah that tends to happen when I read classics not by white dudes.
Kelli: Yes, excellent point, lol. A lot of the time when I read books that are "books I should read," I feel like, "I see why this is important but did I love it? No."
Emily: Unless they're The Great Gatsby.
Kelli: Yes, honestly most of Fitzgerald's work hits me straight in the gut and I love it.
Emily: Yes. He can stay.
Kelli: YOU CAN STAY, F. SCOTT
Kelli: wow
Emily: LOL. TWIN BRAINS
Kelli: I love us.
Emily: I do too.
Kelli: What are we reading next time???
Emily: Our next book is Plain Bad Heroines by Emily M. Danforth. And this will be for Mid-November. All I know is it's a horror-comedy novel about a cursed New England boarding school for girls featuring sapphic love. So... I'm in.
Kelli: Also in. Join us next time!
