Allen v. Farrow is a four-part documentary series on HBO which covers the abuse allegations against Woody Allen by Dylan Farrow, his adopted daughter, who was seven years old at the time. The allegations and subsequent custody trial were highly-publicized when they took place in the 1990s, but Allen was never formally charged because experts were concerned that a trial re: abuse allegations would be too traumatizing for Dylan. Thus, Allen has continued to enjoy great success in Hollywood. This documentary aims, in part, to correct that.

Kelli: My first question for you is: how familiar were you with this case? And what is your relationship to the work of Woody Allen?

Susan: I became somewhat familiar with it in recent years, when Dylan Farrow came forward again and Ronan Farrow came to her defense and helped publicize the story. I had no awareness of it in the 90s (but I was a child). I was more aware of the fact that Allen married Mia Farrow's adopted daughter Soon-Yi, which I always thought was creepy at best (predatory was more likely, and as it turns out, true).

My relationship to Woody Allen's work is not that deep. There are two Woody Allen movies that I liked quite a bit (Midnight in Paris and Match Point), but for the most part, I thought the others I saw were self-consciously "quirky" in a way I found off-putting. I've always thought he seemed like a self-important artist who believes too much in his own "genius."

What about you?

Kelli: I was similarly made aware of the story a few years ago when Dylan published her piece through Nicholas Kristof's blog on the New York Times, “An Open Letter From Dylan Farrow.” I also knew vaguely about his marriage to Soon-Yi, and had the same feeling about it. As soon as I read Dylan's letter, I automatically believed her, and that was when I had to start reckoning with my own personal feelings about Woody Allen.

Granted, I wasn't a superfan or anything, so it wasn’t as hard to let go of his work as it has been for me to let go of something like Harry Potter—but the films of Woody Allen were a big part of my unofficial film education, which was mostly orchestrated by my dad, lol. I think I was in high school when he showed me Annie Hall for the first time. We also watched Manhattan, and a couple of his other big movies—more recently Midnight in Paris, and also Blue Jasmine.

A lot of "cinephiles," men in particular, hold Woody Allen in VERY high esteem, and a lot of these people, my father included, still think of him as this genius.

Susan: I thought this documentary did a good job of showing how difficult it is for a lot of people to try to reconcile their love of Allen's work with these allegations. There are other artists and creators I did really love and had to let go of after similar things, so I understand where these people are coming from with having to totally re-frame Allen in their minds.

Kelli: Yeah. I appreciated that in the first couple of episodes they had talking head interviews with prominent film critics who explained their own experiences with Allen's films and his place in the canon of classic film. I think it's important to understand how formative his movies are for a lot of people for us to fully understand why what happened was brushed under the rug like this. I don't think that many people could get away with this as unscathed as he has.

Susan: Yes, I agree. And for someone like me without a deep relationship to his work, it helped fill in that picture for me.

Kelli: So, to pivot a little: how did this work for you as a documentary?

Susan: I've really been on a documentary and docu-series kick lately, so I was excited about this one because it dove deep into a case I really didn't know that much about. I found it really engaging from the beginning, and I loved that Dylan and Mia really got to speak and tell this story together. I also thought the filmmakers made great use of Mia's home video footage to show us what their family dynamic was like (both with and without Woody) and really bring us into Dylan's world as a child.

It's worth noting that Kirby Dick and Amy Ziering also made The Hunting Ground, another fantastic documentary that addresses sexual assault.

Kelli: Oh, I'll have to check that one out. I think it's safe to say that I don't watch anywhere near as many documentaries as you do, but I really wanted to check this one out because of my own relationship to Woody Allen's work. I agree that the home video footage is a great addition to the series. I also think it was just really well-done in terms of storytelling.

Lately a couple of the docu-series that I've watched (Tiger King, The Vow) have, in my opinion, some really big narrative issues. The way the information is organized is confusing and inefficient, timelines are difficult to keep track of, and pieces of the story are held back almost to manufacture "twists" in a way that keeps us from understanding the full picture until it's too late. I appreciated that this doc didn't have those sensational elements. The goal here was to outline the story as clearly as possible.

Susan: Yes, and I think given the subject matter, it needed to be told that way to get ahead of the Allen defenders trying to poke holes in Dylan or Mia's accounts.

Though it also did a great job of addressing those holes Allen has brought up before ("She never mentioned a train set before; this is a brand new element to the story!") and going back through court documents and medical records to prove that Dylan has been incredibly consistent.

Kelli: Yes. This seemed very investigative to me, while also remaining sensitive to victims. It struck a good balance. When it comes to cases like this, people like to say "well it's a he said/she said situation," so having all of the evidence presented like this is very useful. Also, one of the biggest reasons Allen was seen as "innocent" in the public eye was because of the "findings" of one specific team from the Yale Child Sex Abuse Clinic that suggested Dylan was not reliable and had possibly been coached.

However, it seems that almost every single person involved in investigating at the time believed Dylan to be a credible interview EXCEPT for the Yale team, which definitely made it seem like something sketch was going on there with Yale's findings. What did you think about this?

Susan: If I had to hear the word "coaching" one more time... I think you're right—something weird was definitely going on there, and I can't help but think it had to do with Woody Allen being high profile and Yale maybe not wanting to malign themselves in the public eye. It felt like it must have been a self-serving move because it definitely didn't feel like they were operating in the victim's best interest.

Kelli: For sure. It's wild, because that report was seen as a smoking gun for Allen that a lot of people took as proof he was innocent when really, all they were supposed to be investigating was the mental state of Dylan Farrow at the time.

But you make a good point about Allen's high profile, which is something else this series is exploring. He had so many friends in high places that going up against him was going to be difficult no matter what, let alone in a sexual abuse case, an area where victims have historically been disbelieved. And this is where I always come to mentally when I hear about stories like this: WHY would Dylan and Mia make this up?

Mia knew very well what a risk she would be taking here, not just with Dylan's well-being but with her own career. She’d worked solely with Allen for a decade. Why would she put everything on the line to make something up like this when the odds were already stacked against her? It makes no sense, but Allen's claim from the beginning was that Mia was making the entire thing up to punish him for falling in love with Soon-Yi.

Susan: I always want to scream "WHY would someone be making this up?!" when someone goes public with abuse allegations, especially when the abuser is someone so powerful. The accuser always stands to lose more in these situations, and that was certainly true for Mia Farrow, who was essentially black-listed in Hollywood after this, and she definitely knew that she would be.

Kelli: Exactly! Not to mention the shame that comes with this particular situation — which is not to say that Mia should feel ashamed about it, but she absolutely does based on her interviews throughout the series. You can tell that she holds an enormous amount of guilt for bringing this man into her family.

Susan: I read that she was really reluctant to be interviewed about this at all and only decided to after Dylan had agreed to be interviewed and asked her to do it too. The directors said she showed up with no wardrobe or anything. She borrowed a blouse from one of them. It's so heartbreaking that the guilt falls on her, while Woody is just out there...living it up like normal.

Kelli: It is a lot to dredge up again, I'm sure. Particularly, I would imagine, when it comes to talking about Soon-Yi, because she and Mia no longer have a relationship. Most of the second episode of the series is focused on what happened with Soon-Yi.

Susan: Mia clearly still loves and cares for Soon-Yi, and I think she definitely sees Soon-Yi as a victim too. I can't begin to imagine what it must have felt like for 1) her long-term partner and co-parent to cheat on her with her own daughter, and 2) her to have to try to protect that daughter from this person. It's a personal heartbreak for her own relationship and a near-impossible thing to try to help your daughter with.

Kelli: For sure. It was really tough to hear about what Soon-Yi was like as a kid, not just from Mia but also from the other kids in the family. They talked about how she was such a shy, quiet girl, how the trauma of her early childhood impacted her ability to feel comfortable with the rest of the family, and it's just like... Woody recognized this in her, and he took advantage of her vulnerability. That's what abusers do.

Which is why it's so weird to me that people want to defend him and say that Dylan's allegations are some kind of ridiculous claim... like, you don't believe that this man who started grooming his step-daughter when she was in high school and got into a sexual relationship with her when she was BARELY legal (and most likely before that, based on circumstantial evidence)... might also do this to someone younger? It's not that far of a reach, y'all.

Susan: Right?! I don't know how people can separate what happened with Soon-Yi from everything else. If anything, the fact that he did this to Soon-Yi only makes it *more* believable that he'd harm people.

Kelli: Exactly!

The one thing that is weird to me and that I don't understand is the situation with Moses, one of Mia's other adopted children, who for a period of time supported Dylan and Mia but then at some point switched his support to Woody and even alleged abuse from Mia during his childhood. The rest of his siblings (other than Soon-Yi) deny these claims and continue to support Dylan and their mother. I can't begin to speculate about what's going on here because we don't have the full story, and Moses did not want to participate in this documentary. I just wish we had that piece of the puzzle a little bit more clearly.

Susan: Yes, his change of stance was a total 180, and I can't help but think that somehow Woody got to him, but like you said, we can't speculate too much about it since we're missing the story. The fact that everyone else in the very large family supports Dylan and Mia—and that multiple family friends, babysitters, etc. all witnessed the behavior—says a lot though.

Kelli: Absolutely. The other piece I find very interesting is Ronan Farrow's involvement in the story. I appreciated his willingness to admit that he didn't take his sister seriously when they were younger, and that that's part of the reason he's fought so hard in recent years to make her voice heard.

I just love Ronan Farrow tho.

Susan: I think his admission that he didn't take her seriously at first but supports her now is important for people to see because, frankly, I think that's how the public understanding of sexual abuse (and abuse in general) has evolved over the years. Ronan was almost a stand-in for public opinion in that way.

I also think that overall, this documentary did a great job of examining *why* people are so hesitant to believe victims, and often it's simply because they don't want to have to completely re-think what they know about a person. I have been guilty of this in the past, of not wanting to believe something someone did just because my own personal experience of that person was not abusive. But that doesn't make that person not guilty.

Like during Kavanaugh's hearings, so many women were like, "I knew him, and he didn't abuse me." Well that doesn't mean he didn't rape someone else. The more powerful the person, the harder it is to change public opinion of them because so many people idolize them.

Kelli: Absolutely. The documentary also points out that some of the recent support Dylan has received has come out of the #MeToo movement (which stemmed in part from Ronan Farrow's investigative reporting about the many people sexually abused by Harvey Weinstein).

It took a huge movement against a public figure for many celebrities and people in the film industry to actually come out and say that they believe Dylan. Even people who previously defended Allen and worked with him have now apologized for ever doing so.

Susan: It's encouraging to see that, not just for Dylan's sake, but for victims of abuse in general.

Kelli: Absolutely. It's just frustrating that Allen has been able to continue his career for nearly 30 years and is just now coming to this public reckoning. And that's the thing—this documentary has come out and been generally well-received critically, but does this actually signify the end of Allen's career?

It's sickening to think of what else he might have done to other people over the past three decades. And when it comes to separating the art from the artist, it's especially hard to do that when so much of the art is seemingly autobiographical. When so, so many of Allen's movies are about an older man—more often than not played by Allen himself—getting together with an extremely young woman.

Susan: That was a gross revelation for me. Having not seen many of the movies but seeing that breakdown on the relationship dynamics he sets up for his characters (and his general descriptions of women characters) shed new light on his way of thinking for me.

Kelli: I just don't think I'll ever be able to watch one of his movies again without this series at the forefront of my mind. And honestly — I don't want to.

Susan: Yeah, I'm not going to bother now. I'll just settle for the clips of Manhattan this series showed me and not revisit any of his work.

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