Todd: The time has come for another Wheel of Time reading update, and this time Todd (me) is here! To quickly recap, Mary and I spent more than a year “reading” Winter’s Heart before finally finishing it this summer and then zooming through Crossroads of Twilight. We have now almost finished the prologue of Knife of Dreams and we have some thoughts! I will let Mary kick things off by asking this: now that you are through it, how bad was the dreaded “slog”?
Mary: Okay, gosh. There’s no point to sugarcoat the reality of a twenty or so year old book series. There were a couple of points where I genuinely thought I wasn’t going to make it because there was very little new information being communicated to me during Winter’s Heart and Crossroads of Twilight. These books contained SO MANY named characters that I had never heard of and had no desire to get to know. It’s not that these new characters had any depth or importance – Robert Jordan seemed to just want to introduce a bunch of little guys with one distinct trait about them. This guy sits like a sack of potatoes, this guy keeps blowing his nose, this guy is tall! Okay, and?
Instead of driving the plot of the novel forward, we just got a lot of dull talking. Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE a talking scene, but the conversations never seemed to take us anywhere. It felt like we were getting “characterization” from RJ, but really it was just meandering and meaningless. I could have read a summary of these two books and it have the same effect. Do you have anything to say to defend this?
Todd: I think if you had asked me before reading the two, I would have said: “But it’s part of the whole experience!” Having now re-read Winter’s Heart and Crossroads of Twilght for the third(?) time, I can confidently say–read a summary of the chapters and then the final chapter of Winter’s Heart and then move on! Life’s too short to spend so many chapters reading about Elayne’s stomach-aches.
Mary: OK BUT YOU WOULD NOT LET ME DO THIS WHEN I ASKED.
Todd: I…still think it was good that we read it! But also…I have regrets! It’s complicated! I have a lot of love for these characters, and there were individual glimpses that were interesting or compelling, but these last two books are a big swing and a miss almost entirely, which does suck. All I can do is say I’m sorry and I’m glad we are done with those books.
Mary: For sure! I don’t regret reading it, but it was painful. Things are looking up now.
To be fair, there are big pieces moving around, like the Kin combining forces with the Aes Sedai, but couldn’t that have been one chapter instead of two entire books? Even the Forsaken aren’t doing anything terribly interesting.
That said, I would love a series of books from the Forsaken’s perspectives. I think they’re kind of underutilized.
Me every time Todd would try to get me to read these books.
Todd: Completely agree. What has Semirhage been up to this whole time? Or Graendal! The people cry out for more of Graendal using people as chairs! It is wild because yes, if we write out the things that are happening, they are pretty world-shaking, like the aforementioned Kin, and Rand and Nynaeve LITERALLY CLEANSING THE TAINT! But it is folded into all these other stories that seem to have nothing to do with the rest of the plot.
Mary: They really need to call it something other than the taint.
Todd: Is there a side-plot or group of characters that seems particularly unimportant? Let me put in a vote for the White Tower sisters who are hunting the Black Ajah because they think Elaida asked them to. What an absolute group of little sillies.
Mary: That’s a pretty egregious plotline. I’d also like to submit the Shaido. Just the Shaido in general. I don’t know why Faile was kidnapped or what they’re doing with her aside from just… keeping her? Their whole deal is extremely confusing and I don’t care for it.
I’d argue that it’s not that there’s one specific plotline that slows everything down. I know that a lot of readers argue that Faile and the Shaido are the main problem, but really, it’s everything.
Todd: Yep, I agree. Jumping from the Shaido not doing anything to Egwene and the Rebel Aes Sedai not doing anything to Elayne not doing anything is exhausting. I haven’t read GRRM’s A Song of Ice and Fire, but the impression I get is that he has bogged himself down by holding to the “realism” of his story, and it feels a little like RJ did that to himself in these books–except, Wheel of Time, even more so than aSoIaF, does not ascribe to a “realistic” world. People can open a hole in the air and walk from one part of the map to the other! They can talk to each other in their dreams! Why do we need every detail of Elayne’s ascension to the Lion Throne?!?
Mary: Right– I understand that there are complex machinations behind every rise to the throne, but c’mon. I don’t need a million different noble families all cattily talking about each other. Let them do a murder. Let something big happen. Take me to the final battle already.
I also feel like we have to discuss the Rand of it all. I still don’t think he needed to marry three women – they’re not calling it that, but it’s what it is – and I refuse to believe he has magic semen that immediately impregnated Elayne with twins.
Todd: *Sigh* Yes. Rand, Rand, Rand. He is, as we often say, not doing well. He is hardening himself (I guess because RJ got rid of the Taint he had to have Rand talk about something else that sounds weird to say out loud). He gets sick whenever he holds the One Power. Lews Therin may or may not be a real person who lives inside his head. The Rand arc is a really tough thing to talk about as it is happening, but we are truly at a low ebb during these books. In either 7 or 8 he fought the Seanchan with The Sword That Is Not A Sword and also almost killed his entire army. What are your thoughts about ol’ Rand these days?
He sucks and I hate him.
Mary: Hate him.
But really, his Chosen One narrative is kind of tired, and I don’t think it’s just tired because we’re reading this in 2023. He’s not really doing anything innovative with that role, and I can only feel bad about him being destined to die for so long before that gets old.
Todd: We can both agree on Rand being not great, but what about our other characters? Perrin is here! Do you have larger thoughts on Perrin and Faile and their whole predicament? I still really like Perrin and Faile–and their relationship!--despite how little I care for the whole Shaido aspect of it all.
Also, I love Mat, but once again, he got stuck in a listless plot and it really brought out some of the worst aspects of his character. Not fun, even if, once again, the idea of him and his relationship with Tuon is theoretically interesting.
Mary: Everyone is stuck. I don’t think that Perrin and Faile deserve the amount of hatred they get for the slog, but their arc is very slow for sure. I keep thinking, what are we getting out of this storyline? What is it progressing? I can’t tell you.
And who even is Tuon? I hate, hate, hate, that she calls Mat “toy.” Why would you?
These are characters I like, and a story I have an attachment to, but this particular stretch just feels useless. Part of me has to speculate if RJ had a diagnosis at this point and was floundering personally and professionally, which is understandable.
Todd: The truth of the slog has always seemed to me like RJ fell in love with his world and wanted to show more aspects of it–Far Madding is SUCH a cool idea! But we spend such a short amount of time in it, and it is mostly with Rand being a big ol’ dummy (even if we do get a short return to Box-Rand)–unfortunately, RJ doesn’t give the readers enough of a reason to invest in all these different aspects and characters, and the slowing down of the plot slows down EVERYTHING. It’s really frustrating because the thing that is so great about the Wheel of Time as a whole is its fully realized fantasy world, but just as RJ was starting to show us more of that, his writing devolved into his worst tics and habits.
Are there things you are looking forward to in the final books? I know we have started Knife of Dreams, and the first scene in the prologue is like a breath of fresh air.
Mary: Yes! It feels like Knife of Dreams kicks off with so much action, which makes me feel back in the thick of things. I’m looking forward to seeing how things escalate. We have to get to the final battle eventually, right?
I’m also interested to see how Mat and Tuon’s relationship develops. I’ve been waiting for it for such a long time – we get the prophecy (prediction? Telling?) that Mat is going to marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons EARLY, and it’s great to see that taking shape. Still, I feel like Mat has had so much more chemistry with just about every other woman in the books, so I want to see how it shakes out. I’m becoming more interested in some characters we haven’t seen for a while, so that’s exciting too.
And, gosh, I’m ready for Faile to get rescued or whatever.
Todd: Yes. Please! It really feels like once Perrin and Faile reunite, things have to get demonstrably better for the series. Also, for me, we are entering the parts of the series that are a lot more fuzzy for me because I have not read them as many times, so I am getting excited to see what happens all over again!